Laches | Page 9

councillors disagree, and some one
is in a manner still needed who will decide between them. Had they
agreed, no arbiter would have been required. But as Laches has voted
one way and Nicias another, I should like to hear with which of our two
friends you agree.
SOCRATES: What, Lysimachus, are you going to accept the opinion
of the majority?
LYSIMACHUS: Why, yes, Socrates; what else am I to do?
SOCRATES: And would you do so too, Melesias? If you were
deliberating about the gymnastic training of your son, would you
follow the advice of the majority of us, or the opinion of the one who
had been trained and exercised under a skilful master?
MELESIAS: The latter, Socrates; as would surely be reasonable.
SOCRATES: His one vote would be worth more than the vote of all us
four?
MELESIAS: Certainly.
SOCRATES: And for this reason, as I imagine,--because a good
decision is based on knowledge and not on numbers?
MELESIAS: To be sure.
SOCRATES: Must we not then first of all ask, whether there is any one
of us who has knowledge of that about which we are deliberating? If
there is, let us take his advice, though he be one only, and not mind the
rest; if there is not, let us seek further counsel. Is this a slight matter
about which you and Lysimachus are deliberating? Are you not risking
the greatest of your possessions? For children are your riches; and upon
their turning out well or ill depends the whole order of their father's
house.
MELESIAS: That is true.
SOCRATES: Great care, then, is required in this matter?
MELESIAS: Certainly.
SOCRATES: Suppose, as I was just now saying, that we were
considering, or wanting to consider, who was the best trainer. Should

we not select him who knew and had practised the art, and had the best
teachers?
MELESIAS: I think that we should.
SOCRATES: But would there not arise a prior question about the
nature of the art of which we want to find the masters?
MELESIAS: I do not understand.
SOCRATES: Let me try to make my meaning plainer then. I do not
think that we have as yet decided what that is about which we are
consulting, when we ask which of us is or is not skilled in the art, and
has or has not had a teacher of the art.
NICIAS: Why, Socrates, is not the question whether young men ought
or ought not to learn the art of fighting in armour?
SOCRATES: Yes, Nicias; but there is also a prior question, which I
may illustrate in this way: When a person considers about applying a
medicine to the eyes, would you say that he is consulting about the
medicine or about the eyes?
NICIAS: About the eyes.
SOCRATES: And when he considers whether he shall set a bridle on a
horse and at what time, he is thinking of the horse and not of the bridle?
NICIAS: True.
SOCRATES: And in a word, when he considers anything for the sake
of another thing, he thinks of the end and not of the means?
NICIAS: Certainly.
SOCRATES: And when you call in an adviser, you should see whether
he too is skilful in the accomplishment of the end which you have in
view?
NICIAS: Most true.
SOCRATES: And at present we have in view some knowledge, of
which the end is the soul of youth?
NICIAS: Yes.
SOCRATES: And we are enquiring, Which of us is skilful or
successful in the treatment of the soul, and which of us has had good
teachers?
LACHES: Well but, Socrates; did you never observe that some persons,
who have had no teachers, are more skilful than those who have, in
some things?
SOCRATES: Yes, Laches, I have observed that; but you would not be

very willing to trust them if they only professed to be masters of their
art, unless they could show some proof of their skill or excellence in
one or more works.
LACHES: That is true.
SOCRATES: And therefore, Laches and Nicias, as Lysimachus and
Melesias, in their anxiety to improve the minds of their sons, have
asked our advice about them, we too should tell them who our teachers
were, if we say that we have had any, and prove them to be in the first
place men of merit and experienced trainers of the minds of youth and
also to have been really our teachers. Or if any of us says that he has no
teacher, but that he has works of his own to show; then he should point
out to them what Athenians or strangers, bond or free, he is generally
acknowledged to have improved. But if he can show neither teachers
nor works, then he should tell